Interview: Zoë Bell on Raze, Stuntwork, and More

For someone who’s probably come closer than most to being dismembered, Zoë Bell has a really good head on her shoulders. The 35-year-old New Zealand native, who’s been kicking ass as a stunt double since she was a teenager, has honed her craft to the point of having it down to a science, weighing the pros and cons of a job most people wouldn’t dare attempt. She’s also found a balance in where she stands as a role model for women, declining to be a person who “stands on a soapbox preaching equal rights,” but thoroughly embracing her position as someone whose very career, as she tells it, makes her a feminist. Furthermore, Bell has been stealthily, increasingly steering herself toward the spotlight, shifting from being the one who takes hits for Lucy Lawless in Xena: Warrior Princess and Uma Thurman in the Kill Bill films, to the one with her name on the marquee. Breaking out on screen in a big way in Quentin Tarantino’s Death Proof, Bell has since taken small roles in Django Unchained and Oblivion, and now she’s the lead star in Raze, a brutal, and somewhat controversial, fight flick wherein 50 women, including Bell’s Sabrina, are jailed and forced to fight to the death. Passing through New York to promote the film, which she also produced, Bell chatted with me about the film’s politics, its title, her craziest stunts, and the must-sees for anyone visiting her home country.

So, the title, Raze, is a word that, as screenwriter Robert Beaucage states in the press notes, can refer to the leveling and tearing down of not just structures, but human beings, both physically and emotionally. But can’t it also refer to the breaking down of norms in this context, and how we don’t see women in this type of film as often as men?

Totally. I’ll take that. I’ll definitely take that. The name Raze was attached a long time ago, before [producer] Kenny Gage had the concept of this thing. And actually, before we sold it to IFC we had this moment where we were like, “Should we change the title?” And we went through a whole bunch of different titles, just because the definition of “raze” isn’t commonly known by a lot of people. We were concerned that it didn’t instantly say what we wanted it to say to people. But we kind of just decided we could do that in the advertising, and even just the look of the world feels cool, and it looks like the movie. And there are so many different ways that the action of tearing down does apply to this film. And the tearing down of the norms…you’ve hit on a much bigger topic, which is probably why I’m skirting around it a little bit. It’s a topic that’s come up ever since the movie’s come out, and it involves this feminist statement that’s perceived in this film. It’s had quite a noticeable effect on people, which I’m totally stoked about, but it’s interesting because I don’t recall walking into this movie being like, “I would like to make a statement about society.” We just wanted to make a movie with action that was true, and real, and with women, and badass, and with fights we haven’t seen. And fights I hadn’t done, which is saying something, because I’ve done my share of different types of fights. And the fact that there’s nothing else like this out there right now is, in itself, sort of a statement. The fact that people are going, “Whoa! Women versus women! And it’s aggressive! That’s weird!” That’s saying something too.

You’ve been quoted as saying that watching women fight is different than watching men because of certain emotional and maternal aspects. But, again, it seems like this film wants to blur those lines and level that field.

Yeah. I mean, this has been spinning in my head a lot, so if I start tangizing, feel free to pull me in—and I do make up words that you’ll appreciate at some point. From my personal experience, as a stuntwoman, I never wanted to be treated like a man. I wanted to be treated like a talented stuntperson. As a woman, I’m capable of different stuff. I have different strengths, I have different weaknesses—genetically, the way I’m built, the physical strengths I have, the emotional strengths, what nature has taught me to react to or deem important. I’m just fundamentally not a man. I’m just not. I don’t want to be a man, I dig being a woman. So there’s this weird thing where the fight for across-the-board equality seems to be defeating the purpose to me somehow. And I know this is where it gets a bit risky, because if I get misquoted, people will be like, “Ugh! Zoë doesn’t care about being treated like blah, blah…” But my basic theory is if you work really hard, and do good work, and treat people well, you’ll be respected for the person that you are, whether that’s a stuntperson, or who you are as a friend to somebody, or as a family member, or as a business partner.

What about the motivations behind the fight scenes themselves?

Well, shooting the movie, we did shoot it as if it were men. We weren’t going to make these women prettier than they would look in this situation. We weren’t going to use blood that’s, like, accenting their eye color. You know? We’re gonna put the blood where they get punched. We’re gonna keep it as real as possible. But in order for this to feel true and authentic, they had to have something to fight for, because I don’t think, in general, that women would fight just to dominate and win. I have met women who would, but in general—and again, I feel like I have to be very careful in the way I speak about this—nature dictates that my instinctive job in life is to protect. As a woman, there’s that instinctive, maternal sense of protection, whereas with men there’s more an urge to dominate and stake claim. It makes more sense to see men fighting just to survive, or to win, or to kill even. With women, the moment you put someone they love or care about into the equation, I feel like that’s a much more realistic trigger. When we were going through it, I couldn’t make sense of why this character, Sabrina, would kill a bunch of women just because these guys are asking her to. I think she’d probably just say, “Fuck you,” and not do it, and be killed. But the minute she has to do it to save her daughter’s life, it’s a whole different thing.

You said the film is prompting people to read it as making feminist statements, but what about the exploitation elements? How concerned were you, as both actress and producer, about the fundamental trickiness of having a movie with women fighting to the death in an extremely voyeuristic fashion?

We talked about it. I had this thing, and maybe it’s naïve, but I felt that by the nature of who I am, and the life that I’ve lived, and the work that I do, and the way that I do it—I’m a feminist. I’ve never felt the need to be on a soapbox and preach for equal rights, and I’m fortunate that I’ve never had to be in that situation because I’ve been gifted this life where I get to just go out there and be like, “Look! I’m kicking ass and I’m good at it so you have to treat me accordingly.” So going into this movie, I think I was just very aware of the need to be as true as possible, and to bring in women who are strong actors and can bring the truth to these characters, instead of having them just be women killing each other for the joy of men. Also, the costumes were very heavily pushed by me to not be bras and panties, and instead be these track pants and white tanks that aren’t see-through. And there isn’t, like, water coming from anywhere that’s going to make them see-through.

Did you have to fight for that?

No, it wasn’t like me-versus-them or anything, but I was very clearly stating that this is what I would like. And I like the idea of it being sweats. It just sort of takes away the sexual-exploitation possibilities. [Director] Josh Waller was also very heavily involved in there being no sexualization of stuff, and no implication that maybe these women wanna fuck each other, or the guards. There was none of that in this film, and I think it was a very conscious thing to remove it all—to strip it all back. And, you know, we were also very aware that people might be upset by it too, and there have been a couple of people who’ve been upset by it. I think seeing women fight in this way is very confronting for people. I mean, shit, I still get confronted watching some of these fights, like, “Gahh, this is disturbing!” And not just because of the eye-gouging; the emotional content makes me recoil.

I read that your first job as a stuntwoman was when you were a teenager, on a New Zealand soap opera, but the details were sketchy. How old were you when you started?

My first job was when I was 17, and it wasn’t on the soap opera you’re talking about, Shortland Street, but on a pilot called Amazon High. It was about a cheerleader who went back in time to kill bad guys with a cheer, and I was playing an Amazon woman, in the background, with a furry padded bra and undies, running around wielding a stick. For three weeks. That’s what I did. And they paid me. It was the first time I’d ever worn a push-up bra, and I was pretty uncomfortable about it, but still—they were paying me to fight and play boy sports in the background. It was awesome.

And then, of course, moving forward, we have your work in Xena and Kill Bill, both of which had you doubling for the film’s actual stars. Obviously, you’re busting your ass on these projects, but is there a certain safety and comfort in knowing that you don’t have to bear the full burden because it’s not your face the audience is seeing?

Totally. I remember there was one movie that I did that was not a particularly successful movie, and that ended up being slandered a little bit, but the work I did on it was awesome. And it pushed me. I did a 22-story-high fall. That’s the kind of work that gets me really excited, and as a stuntgirl, that’s the part that’s really important to me. The show doesn’t have to be a massive success. I mean, financially, it’s helpful, in terms of residuals, but that’s never been my reason for doing any of things. It can be a shitty little movie that nobody’s going to see, but if I get to do something on horses that I’ve done before, or flip a car or something, I’m good with that. My performance only needs to be deemed good to me by my professional colleagues. It doesn’t matter much to me whether or not the rest of the world appreciates it, because they don’t actually have to know that I’m there at all, you know? [laughs]

Is there something that you consider to be the craziest thing you’ve done? Or the most memorable or dangerous?

It’s so hard when you’ve got years and days of all this crazy stuff. But I would probably say that what stands out most for me in terms of, “If something goes wrong, I’m probably, definitely, dead at this point,” was the chase sequence in Death Proof, and that high fall [which, as Bell lets slip, was from Catwoman]. Both of those involved moments where I’m like, “Oh…this is where error could equal very sad parents.”

So, what keeps you going in those moments? Because I was also going to mention how you injured your back pretty badly on Xena. Are these the times when you think, “Okay, maybe this isn’t necessarily the best career choice?”

Yeah, like when you’re about to throw yourself off a building and you ask yourself, “What the hell am I doing?”

Yes, exactly. [laughs]

The only time I’ve really had that feeling—and it was quite intense—was post-injury. So it wasn’t like I was looking at what I was about to do thinking, “This is a dumb idea.” I came to the conclusion very early on that there are two different fears I can establish within myself: a rational fear and an irrational fear. If it’s a rational fear, then I need to change something before I jump. Because if my body is telling me something bad is going to happen, rationally, I need to listen to that. If I’m terrified I’m going to die, I should not jump. That seems like an obvious thing to say, but there’s a difference between being 22 stories up and saying, “I think I’m gonna die,” and being 22 stories up and saying, “I’m capable of doing this.” The fear is if it goes wrong. So the if it goes wrong becomes what I need to calculate. What percentage of that am I responding to? Once I’ve made the decision that I know I can do it, then the fear is adrenaline, and performance anxiety, and wanting to get it right. That kind of thing. But if I’m standing up there thinking, “This might kill me,” it’s time to reconsider. I want to do a good job, and I love adrenaline, but I like…being alive more. [laughs] It’s a movie. It’s not worth my life.

So, post-Death Proof, we’ve now seen you in other films like Oblivion, and in Raze you have a full-on leading role. Is it going to be hard stepping back into the shadows to play someone’s double instead of being the star?

Yup. Yes. I’d like to say no and be like, “Eh, it’s no big deal.” But it is a very different situation now.

You’ve caught the acting bug?

I’ve definitely caught the acting bug, and over the last couple of years I’ve made a conscious decision to withdrawal myself from stunt work, unless it’s for a dear friend, or some specific reason that makes the project very personal to me. Because I had to make the transition into committing to this acting thing that was far more terrifying to me than the stunt thing, otherwise I’d slide back into the comfort that is the stunt world. And then I’d be shying away from this acting work that I actually want to pursue. And if I did that I’d give everybody else the excuse to not take me seriously. If I’m not taking myself seriously as an actor, I can’t possibly ask other people to do it. So I had to kind of severe [the stunt gig]. It’s kind of like when you move out of home. Even if you still love your parents, you still have to do it to create room for yourself as this new adult. You know?

I can’t let you go without asking about New Zealand, because it’s my ultimate destination. What’s one of your favorite things about the place, and what’s something I should definitely do if I go? Or when I go. I’m going to commit to “when.”

Yeah, stick with “when.” You should definitely go. What first pops into my head in terms something I truly love about the place is the culture and the people. Without a doubt, when I get off a plane, and I see Kiwis, and they’re talking to each other, I just breathe and go, “Home!” The people are sort of slightly conservative, and kind of dry, and a little bit backhanded, but they’re also the most welcoming people on the planet. And the combination makes me very relaxed. As far as places you should go, Queenstown is undoubtedly stunning. It’s a snow resort, but in the summertime it’s amazing as well. There’s another little place called Waitomo Caves, which is one of my favorite places because we used to go there when I was little. You go black-water rafting, but it’s glowworm caves. So you just sit in this raft, and you drift through this ring, and it’s completely black, but sky, or ceiling, is just covered in glowworms. It’s just…awesome.

Wow. Glowworm caves. Okay.

I know, right? It just sounds cool.

Yeah. Kinda like “raze.”

[laughs] Yup. Kinda like “raze.” I don’t care what it means. That shit just sounds cool.