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Interview: Azazel Jacobs on The Lovers, Debra Winger, and More

Jacobs discusses the chemistry between Winger and Tracy Letts and how it felt to cede ownership of his film to viewers.

Interview: Azazel Jacobs on The Lovers, Debra Winger, and More
Photo: A24

The son of avant-garde pioneers Ken and Flo Jacobs, Azazel Jacobs has the most conventional career in his family. He’s still far from a household name, but he’s been steadily scooting closer to the mainstream ever since his first feature, Nobody Needs to Know, a satire of New York City’s theatrical subculture that doubles as a call to resist the capitalistic powers that be.

His latest, The Lovers, which premiered at this year’s Tribeca Film Festival, is a tart, smart, moving, and genuinely dramatic romantic comedy. It stars Debra Winger and Tracy Letts as Mary and Michael, a long-married couple who’ve both turned to affairs after growing apart but are beginning to wonder if they’re even more tired of the affairs than they were of their marriage.

I spoke to Jacobs, who I last interviewed in 2011 for The L Magazine, at Manhattan’s Smyth Hotel about taking inspiration from 1950s romantic comedies, the chemistry between Winger and Letts, and how it felt to cede ownership of his latest film to the audience.

I love the screwball comedies and comedies of remarriage of the 1930s and ’40s, and I always wish someone would make smart, funny movies like that these days—relationship movies that respect their audiences and respect women. And you just did it!

Thank you so much. I also really love those films and was raised watching them. My parents are still watching those films. Those aren’t light films. They’re always coming from a war, approaching a war, there’s a depression going on, and all these things are very much on the surface. Also, if you go a little bit pre-code, they’re riskier than anything that’s being made today.

Were you influenced by them when you were working on this?

I hope so. I definitely saw the ability to at least think about those films with this movie, to have a connection to them. It’s a little too high of a goal to think, “Oh, I’m gonna make one just like that.” But during the writing the script, it was like, “I can see that influence on this, and there’s a way for me to respect that influence in a way that I don’t think I had a chance to before.”

Once you became conscious of that influence, did it change anything about how you were writing?

Instead of picturing present-day actors, I was able to think of, like, William Powell or Myrna Loy, people that you’ll never have a chance to work with, but you could feel their qualities in it. I definitely saw that kind of screwball ability in Debra, from past work and from meeting with her as a person.

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It’s great to see Debra Winger in such a good part. So much of the story is told just by her eyes: the way she looks or the way she looks away.

That’s true.

How did you get her?

That’s really thanks to Terri. She saw it and she wrote a letter to me, being really touched by the film. It took about five years of me going to her with different projects, trying to figure out something we could work on. We’d meet up almost once a year and just talk and see where we were. No surprise, but she wanted to find the right thing, so it took a while.

So did you write this with her in mind?

Definitely with those eyes in mind, at a certain point. The thing that really stayed with me more than anything while I was writing, when I started thinking of her, was the way that she looks at things. You really could see what she’s thinking. I wanted this film to take advantage of that in a way that I hadn’t seen for a long time with her.

Last time we spoke, you said you’d lost the confidence, and maybe the arrogance, that made you want to tell big, important stories. But a case could be made that The Lovers is about some pretty big human themes, like the importance of living an authentic life and of seeing the people in front of you, the people you say you love. And the ways that the sins of the fathers get visited on their sons. Do you think you might be learning to see the significance of things that you used to dismiss and petty and personal?

I’m hoping that you’re seeing that because I’ve learned how to get tighter and a bit more precise and defined. My hope is that the smaller that I’ve gotten with the premises of these stories, the more worldly they’ve become.

I started writing this after experiencing the death of a close friend, and then, in the process of writing it, my dog of 16 years was dying. So it started, really, from a very low place, and trying to focus on something that was making me happy by connecting to a celebration of life. Both my dog and this person were foundations that were suddenly gone below my feet.

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But I’m trusting people like you on what this is about. This screening I just saw two days ago was the first time I’ve seen it with people, so I don’t know what this movie is until I start hearing from people. I know what it feels like. I know I had a very good and important time in my own life making it. But in terms of what’s registering, if you saw that, that’s something I can hope for.

The score reminded me of the Doris Day/Rock Hudson rom-coms of the Eisenhower era, like Pillow Talk. I see them in this too, like you’ve replicated the DNA that made those movies wonderful but updated them, taking out the paternalism and lockstep 1950s conformity.

I think a lot of that has to do with the contrast of the music to the scenes, especially at the beginning. We’re starting off with something quite happy, in the way that those films usually are, in the openings. And when we see a relationship or an affair happen, we usually think of that thing. But we’re actually coming into the exhaustion, the draining feeling of where you go, “This is more work than anything I was running away from,” and then having this big explosive score. That did come from temping out songs from some of those films you’re talking about, putting it there and feeling like, “There’s a clash there that’s interesting. Let’s see what else is possible.”

When Michael first comes home and sits with Mary on the couch to have some wine and watch TV, they’re so comfortable with each other and yet so awkward. I love how that scene says it all, with hardly any words.

I really had a good time with that. That was one of the first days I was shooting with Debra and Tracy when I saw, “Oh, this is gonna work out!” The lines were there, and the ideas with the looks and all that, but so much of that was the two of them feeding off each other and figuring out where does this happen or how does that happen, how do I get to that place. There’s this whole thing with the pillow. I don’t know if you noticed, but Tracy’s character, Michael, is always taking his pillow from his bed and tossing it away, and he does that on the sofa too. So there’s this sense of a comfortable routine that they [the actors] brought to it themselves. There’s a comfort between them that you hope for but you can’t really write. Or I couldn’t write.

This is the kind of picture that I think should be in theaters all over the country, so I was glad to see it’s opening theatrically next month. You don’t see movies like this much, but I don’t know why audiences wouldn’t like it.

I hope that’s true. I really would love people to see this one. I think if that [Tribeca premiere] screening the other night was any indication—it was 850 people, and they were really with it. I was gripping my wife’s hand [at first], just digging into it, but at some point I was like, “Wow, this film is theirs!” It was a good experience. It was the best way to let this film go.

The rest of the cast is excellent too—and, as you say, Tracy and Debra were so good together. How did you get them all?

Debra was the first person who said yes. From that point on, I felt very, very secure that this script and this project would attract the caliber of people who could be on the same level. And that’s exactly what happened, down the line, from Tracy to Aidan [Gillen, who plays Mary’s lover] to Melora [Walters, who plays Michael’s lover] to Tyler [Ross, who plays the couple’s son, Joel] to Jessica [Sula, who plays Joe’s girlfriend]. It just fell in.

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It really defined what The Lovers was. Because there’s a version of this film that could have been done with 30-year-olds, or some other type of acting. But I think Debra [established] the caliber and the seriousness and the power behind all of that. And that’s how everyone down the line found me or found it or I found them.

With both Terri and Doll & Em, you were directing material written by somebody else. I think Terri was your idea, but somebody else wrote it, right?

It was a short story. It was my idea to think there was a movie in it. The idea was to write it together, but then Patrick—Patrick Dewitt—didn’t need the help, so that worked out really well.

But you went back to writing your own script with this one. Did you feel like you wanted to go back to making a movie you wrote?

Yeah. Yes. Definitely. I was a writer on the first season of Doll & Em and then not on the second season, and I felt really hungry to find my way in with my own words again.

Are you planning to make another series, or are you making a movie next?

I’m working on both of those things. I did have a good experience with Doll & Em in the format of TV, and I have a lot of hopes for something now. I also am more involved in Mozart in the Jungle now. I did an episode last season and I’m going to do another episode this season, but they’ve also brought me on as a creative producer or consulting producer, something like that, where I’m able to visit the writers’ room and throw in my responses. I cannot tell you how impressed I am with this group behind—and, of course, in front of—the camera. But also behind. It’s a really brilliant group that I feel like I’m learning from. I think the show is great.

And you’re also preparing a new series?

I hope so. It’s way too early [to talk about], but definitely my aim is to keep working in TV and definitely keep making movies.

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What have you been watching lately that you’ve liked?

Well, we have Filmstruck now. Do you know that site? It’s pretty amazing. There’s lots of Criterion stuff, including this show that Jon Pierson had from 20 years ago called Split Screen. That’s been really amazing. It’s about the independent film world that was emerging—it’s a cable show from 1996. So you’re seeing these people with dreams. It’s when I started as well: My first short film I made in ’96, ’97. So it’s been a nice way for me to kind of remind myself of the path that I’ve taken and also the path that I’d like to go to.

Other than that, Toni Erdmann is a film that immediately comes to mind, because I just loved it. Absolutely loved that film. It was one of those movies I got intimidated and excited and inspired and jealous of.

According to Wikipedia, Azazel means “fallen angel.” Is that what your parents had in mind when they named you?

They just wanted to make sure I didn’t go into any political or religious organization and wasn’t welcome. I think they were trying to set up as many blocks as possible from getting involved in organizations that probably won’t have me now.

Elise Nakhnikian

Elise Nakhnikian has written for Brooklyn Magazine and runs the blog Girls Can Play. She resides in Manhattan with her husband.

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